Transmissions, ranked

"Forrest" (forrest) 07/24/2020 at 02:47 • Filed to: None

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5. CVT

4. Traditional automatic

3. Dual clutch automated manual

1. (tie) Manual transmission with a clutch

1. (tie) Single speed transmission (used in electric vehicles )

Admittedly, I have painted with a broad brush, and there are many varities of each of these.

What do you think?

CompactLuxuryFan > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 03:08

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What about single clutch automated manuals?

For dual clutch automated manuals I’d say there’s currently a bigger spread than for torque converter automatics, which are mostly decent . I’d guess I prefer the average 2020 tc auto to the average 2020 dct. Even in the upper ranges there are few dcts I think I w ould want to own over a ZF8 (e.g. a PDK, which I’ve never driven). And I agree single speed + electric is extremely nice for  most occasions. 

Nick Has an Exocet > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 03:11

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Single speed is after dual clutch. Even calling it a transmission is a technicality. It’s just a single reduction gear. It’s about as complex as a differential and as engaging as a Shia LaBeouf. I think you’re associating the single speed transmission with Tesla when you should probably associate it more with the likes of a... Nissan Leaf. Heck, in terms of character, a CVT probably has more character since you can program fake shift points . What you get from a single speed transmission is whatever the electric motor behind it gives you.

For a really fun street car:

Manual > semi-automatic sequential > Twin clutch DCT or DCT with torque converter depending on application > Single clutch automated manual > Automatic > CVT > Single Speed

For a race car (in the never-driven-on-the-street-unless-batshit-insane) :

CVT (i.e. FW15C CVT) > Dog box (rally, fuck yeah ) > semi-automatic sequential (i.e. F1) > Manual (something you would take to Goodwood ) > Automatic (Trophy truck maybe ?)

It would be fun to do a ranking of the coolest car/ transmission combinations .

facw > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 03:40

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I feel you are overrating the manual. Sure they can be fun, but on modern cars, they are generally lower performance, less efficient, and more work. It’s no accident that they are only around 1% of new cars sales in the US.

Svend > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 04:24

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Love my six speed manual. Smooth, reliable, efficient.

Autos account for 32.1% but rising with more and more electric cars coming onto the market and petrol and diesel cars being phased out by 2035. 

Forrest > CompactLuxuryFan 07/24/2020 at 05:45

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I knew I was forgetting something!

The best CVT is probably better than a really really bad manual. There are lots of special cases for sure.

Forrest > facw 07/24/2020 at 05:45

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Yeah, I definitely see where you are coming from. Automatics have improved a lot in the last couple decades.

Forrest > Nick Has an Exocet 07/24/2020 at 05:50

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Ranking coolest car/transmission combos sounds fun.

I know what you mean about the single-speed being barely a transmission. When I have had seat time in a Bolt EV and various Teslas, I expected to miss rowing the gears. But, with plenty of power on tap, and no automatic transmission to second-guess me, I really enjoyed it. If I ever actually drive anywhere again (post COVID), I will probably get an EV as a daily driver.

Interestingly, I also prefer manuals in street cars and no-clutch-pedal transmissions in track cars. The track is the one place where my brain has so many driving-relate d things to deal with, that letting the car do some of the shifting gives me more attention to focus on the racing line, or track conditions, or paying attention to the corner workers' flags. But, I also enjoy heel-and-toe and shifting on the track.

facw > Svend 07/24/2020 at 05:59

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Things are a bit different here in the US. As of last November, we were 1.1% manuals. I would not be at all shocked if we were now below 1%.

Svend > facw 07/24/2020 at 06:21

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Manuals are still king but many hybrids and electric vehicles being auto, they are replacing manuals quite rapidly.

Personally, I’ve never driven an automatic.

Those that pass their test in an auto are only allowed to drive an auto, until they pass a manual test.

Also if you only hold an auto licence, you are lik ely to pay higher car insurance. 

facw > Svend 07/24/2020 at 06:25

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I once taught a Swede to drive an automatic . He was simultaneously horrified that Americans could be so lazy, and amazed that it was so easy.

Svend > facw 07/24/2020 at 06:34

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Ye’, I can understand that. Lol. 

Tripper > facw 07/24/2020 at 07:35

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Agree on performance, but - conventional manual or cvt is the “anti-drive” I hate the feeling of coasting to a stop. Most DSGs are fantastic once you get out of 1-2 gears. Until then they can be clunky, delayed, and in consistent. In addition they all require special “modes” for their full performance settings. Some are easier than others to get there, but at the end of the day the car will eventually shift or down shift for you and then it’s hard to tell where you are.

We called my S3 “video games” because that is what it was like to drive/operate. It was fun but in a novelty sort of way.

The manual in my wife’s Forster isn’t a good one but after she drove the cvt, she said “ok maybe the manual isn’t that bad”

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 07:47

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1. Nissan JATCO CVT

....

216780 . Everything else

Nibby > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 08:10

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you forgot the best one... feet.

Under_Score > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 08:12

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My DSG feels the same as the four-speed auto in my RAV4. When I floor, the response isn’t always immediate. :/

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 08:27

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How about a sequential, foot-shifted, manual dogbox, i.e. motorcycle transmission.  Nothing more thrilling than bang-shifting off the rev limiter at 12k RPMS!!!

Thomas Donohue > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 08:51

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Putting golf cart transmissions at the top invalidates the list.

Otherwise it’s ok.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 08:57

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What about sequential?

Thomas Donohue > facw 07/24/2020 at 08:58

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To me, this list is based on transmissions only. So you’re generally always going to want the control of a stick shift .

Instead of a modern car with good power, think of a 1991 VW Golf. You don’t want the auto.

Technically I’d have the DCT/PDK as #1, with a manual as a close second.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 09:06

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Drive the early/mid 2000s Camry with a 5 speed but the same DBW throttle setup as the autos. They suck. It’s hard to call a transmission “bad” on its own, because there are so many supporting components that make it better/worse to drive- the throttle setup, the pedal box, the shift linkage setup, stuff like that. Honestly, if the car has a really bad seat, it would make even a fantastic transmission feel like garbage.

facw > Thomas Donohue 07/24/2020 at 09:23

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I think which you’d want on a 30 year old car, is kind of an odd standard. Not that you are wrong about wanting the manual on a ‘91 Golf.

Thomas Donohue > facw 07/24/2020 at 09:45

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I was using an obvious example, but t ake any 2020 car with low power, the stick is generally the better option. An auto is very likely a dog. (Source: I’ve rented dozens of small cars in Europe over the last 10 years in both flavors )

Take any 2020 car with good power and torque, the auto is generally better, but the stick isn’t going to hurt you too much.

To me the stick is more flexible in any car, where the auto is probably not ideal with low-power vehicles.

DCT/PDK beats them all.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > facw 07/24/2020 at 09:55

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I agree with you, but I always find it weird to judge a transmission by its raw performance when nothing else about the car is judged by that standard.

Who cares if your stock Miata is hypothetically faster with a DCT? In most cars the driver is what’s holding them back imo.

I also don’t think many people are  under the illusion that manuals are faster or more efficient today, but that’s not why people buy them. I don’t think a lot of people’s buying habits would change if manuals were faster or got better fuel economy either.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 09:56

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I’ll take a bad manual over a CVT all day long, unless I’m racing to the hospital/finish line 

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > facw 07/24/2020 at 09:59

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I think that says something interesting about what transmissions consumers choose. You would think it would be a practical thing: automatics are easier than manuals, and no longer have to compromise fuel economy or performance. Yet outside the US, in a lot of places people still predominantly choose manual transmissions.

I’m sure there’s many intersecting reasons why that’s true, but I’d be interested to know about them 

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 10:18

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So y our preferred method of shifting gears, is to not shift gears? Heresy!!

(Kidding)

facw > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 07/24/2020 at 11:46

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In Europe at least, the take rate has been dropping off with some speed (though it’s still very high compared to the US). I’d guess it’s a combination of the fact the automatics have really only achieved parity economy wise in the past decade or so, the abundance of low power cars that can least afford to lose an horsepower to a torque converter, and inertia.  

HammerheadFistpunch > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 11:55

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For me I'd put plantery above dual clutch but that's only for how badly dial clutch suck at low speed stuff and how good planetary have become

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 11:57

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I’m with you, but I might be tempted to reverse 3 and 4. DCTs tend to require more maintenance than a traditional automatic, a serious downside IMHO; the  rest of the rankings are spot on. I like that you included single speed - a transmission is always a compromise and things are just so much more simple and elegant when they can be eliminated entirely.

AlfaCorse > facw 07/24/2020 at 12:28

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The only time the lower performance of the manual comes into play is when racing flat out when the shift times would give you a disadvantage and they are harder to consistently launch well out of the hole . So if you were talking about racing I would agree, but in street driving, even spiritedly, those disadvantages just don’t really come into play. Efficiency might depend on the model, but I match and exceed the numbers for the automatic versions without trying to hard, might depend on the city/highway mix.  More work sure, but I enjoy it.  Even good automatics and DSGs will annoy me sometimes in just regular driving scenarios.

dogisbadob > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 13:37

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Wrong!

1. electric cars with no transmission
2. manual transmission (as long as you’re not in heavy traffic or other bad conditions)
3. A good CVT that actually operates as a CVT (no lame-ass paddles or simulating a regular transmission. That’s stupid and defeats the purpose )
4. Torque converter automatic
5. Transmissions like the VW/Porsche Sport-o-matic from the 60s, Saab Sensonic, etc.
6. DCT
7. single-clutch (DCT predecessor)

feather-throttle-not-hair > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 14:10

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I agree with you for the most part about the track being the kind of place where you’d prefer to not have a third pedal. However, s ometimes driving on the track =/= trying to set lap times. Sometimes you’re just fucking around out there, or you’re running a Lemons race in which the extra challenge of shifting is part of the fun.

feather-throttle-not-hair > facw 07/24/2020 at 14:13

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Sure they can be fun

But.....that’s the only reason i have any interest in cars or driving in the first place!

wafflesnfalafel > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 15:50

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I’m conflicted about CVTs - compact, light, super efficient, but they just feel weird and some brands have had issues, (Nissan, Mini...) I’m thinking they are a great solution for lower powered cars driven by folks that just want the transmission to make the car go and like the better gas mileage, but stay with a traditional auto with lockup torque converter for trucks and more powerful cars.

Bob Mansel > Svend 07/24/2020 at 16:04

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I hate driving my wife’s automatics. I’ve always got manuals and she always gets automatics . Even though typically I get her the better more pricey car (she’s ferrying the kids), my cars are always more fun to drive. Automatics are so incredibly boring to drive.

I really don't get why Americans drive automatics so much. 

Svend > Bob Mansel 07/24/2020 at 16:17

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I don’t get why Americans advocate so much for high bhp, rwd and manual and big pickup trucks , when you can only use so much bhp to do a 20mph daily commute to work, drive fwd in many c ases because the cars are chea p er as the cars are primaril y for the daily driving commute, drive auto as it’s easier in stop start traffic when doing the 20mph commute and big trucks when they are the only ones in them for the commute or only have need for one for a few days a year. 

Saracen > Forrest 07/24/2020 at 17:27

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Single speed isn’t really a transmission. You could consider it to be the ideal for any case, so I’m leaving it out.

For the track:

1. Dual-clutch

2. Three-pedal

3. Automatics

4. CVT

For spirited driving on the road:

1. Three-pedal

2. Dual-clutch

3. Automatic

4. CVT

For the miserable daily commute :

1. Automatic

2. Dual-clutch

3. CVT

4. Manual

Cumulative ranking :

1. Dual-Clutch

2. Manual

3. Automatic

4. CVT

KuroNekko2 > Nick Has an Exocet 07/24/2020 at 18:27

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Leadfoot > facw 07/24/2020 at 20:45

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Yeah they might be m ore work by the smallest of margins.They are still pretty darn reliable in the age of self destruct Nissan cvt.

old-busted-hotness-still-cant-comment > Forrest 07/25/2020 at 06:32

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Where’s the pre-selector fit in?

PyramidHat > facw 07/25/2020 at 11:28

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How much teaching was involved, there?

facw > PyramidHat 07/25/2020 at 13:51

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Not much... He definitely wasn’t expecting it to be that “ automatic”

Gene L > facw 07/26/2020 at 00:51

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I agree they are less efficient nowadays. They’re certainly more work, but I also find them to be significantly better in inclement weather. I live up in the Northeast, and I absolutely hate navigating icy, deeply snow packed roads without a manual transmission.

While the 1% figure is absolutely accurate it’s sort of self-fulfilling. As more and more cars are produced without a manual option, there are less and less opportunities for the next “generation” of drivers to learn how to operate them. Sometimes this is advantageous for me. The surprise upside of me owning manual vehicles, is very few of my friends can ask to borrow my car.